It's Levels To This

Fatboi (00:02)
See window It's not doing the

you got it there it is that's it

Sensei (00:11)
Yeah, you know, I practiced a little.

I thought we'd go ahead and maybe take ⁓ a listen at ⁓ Human Nature with the multi-track that we dug up somewhere that was making the rounds, apparently. Let's see how I do this here, Pro Tools.

And there we go. Let's see, can you see my dealy boppy there?

Fatboi (01:15)
I can.

Sensei (01:16)
Excellent. I love it when a plan comes together just like the A Team ⁓ We'll tell you what.

Fatboi (01:23)
Speaker full screen. Speaker split screen. ⁓

Sensei (01:26)
Let's see what we got here. guess I could just bust it, break

it down to its elements and we can build it back up here.

Get that little arpeggio synth thing happening.

I think we had a different note there. you know what I think that might be? Him singing along to the original demo, which was in a different key. Okay, yeah, that surprised me. Michael off pitch

Fatboi (01:53)
yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I was telling you last time we were on, you gotta find the actual vocal that everybody's gonna recognize, because he has takes in there.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, ⁓

vocal, it might've been like vocal three.

Sensei (02:19)
Okay, yeah, there's like five tracks of Michael here and then like maybe like a mix of the backgrounds.

Fatboi (02:27)
Yeah, or it might've been vocal. It's either vocal three or vocal five that was his final take, the one that we used, that was used in the song.

Sensei (02:32)
Mmm.

Let's see, let's build up the instruments though. I'm going to play it back one more time here.

Let's see what we got here. I'll start where it comes in. I think we got something where we've got a combo of tracks on there.

Fatboi (02:42)
Those people do a great job of recreating.

Sensei (02:59)
So this is like synth bass and drum machine basically.

Fatboi (03:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And keep in mind, this ain't midi. These guys are playing this live. It's not midi to anything.

Sensei (03:21)
You think that's Greg Phillingaines playing the bass notes?

Fatboi (03:25)
It's either him or Mariucci, the guy who used to program the... But Steve used to program the synths too and he would play as well. But it's either Greg or the Mariucci guy.

Sensei (03:27)
or the bass player or something.

you

you

Fatboi (03:56)
Yep, that's it.

Sensei (03:57)
I'm still proud of myself for learning that part. Okay, that's tight. What do you think they're using for that sound for the bass?

What would you guess?

Fatboi (04:11)
That bass is probably coming from, it's either a Moog or a...

It's either a Moog or a Jupiter.

Sensei (04:25)
Mmm.

Okay, let's see what else we got here.

Fatboi (04:32)
Yeah, yeah,

would say that's a-

Yeah, that might be a Jupiter.

Sensei (04:41)
got a little coursey vibe to it too. It's not as low as I would have thought.

Fatboi (04:46)
Yeah, no, it's really not. Nope.

Sensei (04:49)
Let's see what we got here on this.

There's the keys.

Fatboi (04:59)
That's Steve Picaro playing that.

I mean, it sounds just like him and since he created it, why not play it?

Sensei (05:09)
I mean, he knows the part.

Fatboi (05:10)
Yeah, exactly.

And see, that's the vocals. That's what I saying. He created the song this exact way and the vocals literally came off of this.

Sensei (05:19)
So this is like a

CS-80 kind of sound, the emulation.

Fatboi (05:26)
Is it the CS80? Does he have the name of it in there, what he played?

Sensei (05:29)
I think it

says GS2 and double with the CS80 emulator.

can kind hear one on the left, one on the right, so kind of a blend there, I guess.

guitar part, nice and bright. I'm guessing that's a strap, which I do not have here.

I'll get more into the guitar later because that's why I brought my axe up. Uh, what we got here? Just kind of a synth pad.

Fatboi (06:17)
Yeah, now that's definitely Jupiter.

Sensei (06:18)
Just film that in there.

That's nice together. Yeah, okay. I'm big on that.

Got a real nice bright timbre on the guitar, a little darker on the keys.

The guitar's moving the rhythm forward, the key's keeping that eighth note thing going.

Fatboi (06:42)
You hear that part right there? Bring the chorus back.

Okay. Nobody, nobody today, we got to make sure to bring this up. ⁓ are we live? Nobody today does anything like this because it doesn't sound right to their ears. Everything has to match. But when you play the chorus, the main keys that were playing during the verse, now all of a sudden it's doing like a

Sensei (06:54)
yeah, we're recording.

Hmm.

⁓

Fatboi (07:16)
a stab thing but it's a chord.

Sensei (07:22)
He went from

chord pad to rhythm. It's like keeping the eighth notes going. ⁓

Fatboi (07:25)
And, but the chord

is like a diminished chord and go back a little bit more. This doesn't sound right to these new ears. And they will be like, ⁓ nah. So if they hear you making this, they'll be like, nah, don't do that. They would literally have to hear this finished for them to like it because it.

Sensei (07:40)
Mmm. ⁓

Right. Well, it's like a cluster chord,

right? Yeah, it's a C sharp and a D right there. By itself, you're like, okay. But in the context of the song, it's beautiful. Adds a nice little tension. Yeah, that little tension there.

Fatboi (07:53)
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to them

Yeah, and and and

But my ears, my ears when I hear that is gonna sound beautiful. That sounds beautiful to me because I

have some jazz training, of course. you're gonna hear that, yeah.

Sensei (08:16)
So it's like an A add 11 I think technically.

it's like basically A with the C sharp and the D kinda.

Fatboi (08:26)
And you hear ⁓ in a lot of my tracks, I'm talking about trap stuff. I do that a lot. People don't know that I'm doing that because their ears aren't trained to it. They're just hearing the after effect of it. But I play, I play notes right next to each other, three notes right next to each other. Yeah.

Sensei (08:44)
like cluster chords. You

can get away with an E in there. See that sounds beautiful to me. I don't know about y'all, but.

Fatboi (08:49)
I, yeah, when you spread it

out, when you, but when you hit it together, when you hit them all at the same, that sounds weird to people.

Sensei (08:55)
Without the root note to

give it context, it's like, okay, what are you doing there? We put that A under it. Now we've got a nice pretty A chord with a little color in it instead of just basic A.

Fatboi (09:00)
It sounds weird to people.

And I play those chords, I love playing chords like that. So in all my, I don't care how hard, how trapped out it is, I always have jazz elements in my productions, which I think that's why people, you know, could never put a finger on what it is that I'm doing. Like with Zaytoven, church all day. I hear church in what Zaytoven is doing. What is it that Fat Boy's doing? Fat Boy's doing jazz, but y'all don't know I'm doing jazz.

because the average listener doesn't listen to jazz.

Sensei (09:45)
Well, it's a different color. It's a different color on the palette that you're using. When people are used to red, blue, and green, then you're using chartreuse or mauve or whatever.

Fatboi (09:47)
It is,

Yeah.

So,

when you hear chords in today's music, most chords in today's music are just one, three, five. One, three, five. I might do one, two, three, five.

Sensei (10:11)
See, this is where actually collaborating with quote unquote real musicians actually gets you somewhere. like a lot of people that have been self-contained from jump and just taught themselves the basic chords may not even be aware that, you could do it. Totally do that. Unless they're just kind of weird and like to, but you know, they like that cluster sound, but they would just think, yeah.

You do one, three, five. That's a, that's an A chord. Yeah. Yeah. So like, we'll keep it basic, but once you add that extra color in there, it's like, ⁓ I got a whole bunch of choices I could do there.

Fatboi (10:43)
Yeah.

So if you add the two to it, got instead of, doon, doon, doon, you got doon.

That's the one, three, five. Okay, now add the two.

Sensei (11:12)
you

you

A, B, C sharp, and then E. And then E, can put it on the top too, I guess. ⁓ I've only got so many fingers over here, man.

Fatboi (11:28)
Yup. Yeah. So many fingers and that,

you know, that one, two, three, five adds that extra note in there. It's a chord that you hear in jazz most of the time, but yeah. And I, know, in my stabs, like how he's stabbing in there, he's stabbing.

Sensei (11:39)
Yeah, like an add- nine.

Yeah, that little tension

there, yeah.

Fatboi (11:56)
So, oh yeah, go back. See how he's stabbing? He's stabbing.

So I stab a lot with my ear candy notes. stab, I might 16th it. I stab a lot, but my stabs are usually steep somewhere in a jazz concept. people don't, know, it sounds dark and all that. Yeah, okay, it's trapped out. It's dark, it's mean and all that.

Sensei (12:29)
Okay, nah.

Fatboi (12:37)
but they're not paying attention. I'm stabbing in some kind of jazz. I might do one, two, three, five, and then I might flip between three, one, two, and then the whole chord again. But it's just, you know.

Sensei (12:54)
Well,

it's adding a little tension and release to something that would otherwise just be kind of vanilla, whatever. Yeah.

Fatboi (12:57)
It- it- y- y- yup.

And then when you hear it in context, it all sounds dope. Sounds dope as fuck, but if you break that down, today's artists, man, if they hear you doing it, they're like, nah, nah, don't do that. They're like, wow, okay, just super basic, huh?

Sensei (13:08)
Right, right, right.

But yeah, but add so much complexity to it, but it's still simple with the rhythm.

Fatboi (13:25)
It's

simple, right? It's simple but complex, which is a term that I love to use. Simple but complex.

Sensei (13:31)
I prefer the term, simplicated. There you go. There you go. Yeah, let's see what else we got we're working with here. Let take it back.

Fatboi (13:33)
It's simplicated. I like that. It's simplicated.

And this song is playing the same chord. Every part is playing the same chords, but they're doing their own thing in relation to the main chords.

Sensei (13:50)
They really are. Yeah, yeah. The

guitar is kind of keeping a line. You know, he's driving the rhythm, doing a lot of single note stuff, which is unique for a guitar. I mean, that was sort of Steve Lukather's approach to like the funky stuff. He would play like a little plinky plunk line. See I can find them here.

Once we get cooking anyway.

⁓ you

I got it. That's tricky. Because you got to figure out how he fingers it. ⁓

Fatboi (14:24)
Yeah! Yeah! There it is!

Man.

When he hits that chord going down, ⁓ man, that's just.

Yeah.

do do boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom

boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom

Sensei (14:54)
You gotta use your pinky.

I got a little sun in the line there.

Fatboi (15:03)
Bum bum ba da da. Woo!

Yep.

Sensei (15:13)
We'll turn around. We're back to plinky plunks. That's dope, but it's

hard that one little line. You're skipping strings. It's not the first thing you'd reach for. And this thing right here. Skipping strings again.

Fatboi (15:25)
Badoom.

Bum, bum, bum, ba-da-da.

⁓ And another term

used, everything ⁓ is pizzicato and then it's legato. Yeah. And it's legato coming out of the plinky plunk. Then it goes back into plink plunks. Yep. Yep. Very important.

Sensei (15:46)
Right, short, stabby. Right here, yeah. Yeah, the articulation is very important on this piece.

He's not playing there, okay. This is dope right here. I love that look, sorry, there.

Fatboi (16:19)
Man,

see here we go audience with the pizzicatos.

Sensei (16:24)
He's kind of doing a little karate chop on his right hand to keep it muted. So he get that short, it doesn't ring.

Fatboi (16:32)
right. And then we go to legato right here.

Back to Plink Plunk.

Legato.

Yeah, so what really makes this song unique is all the articulations throughout the record.

Sensei (16:53)
What's cool about it, it's very human. It doesn't sound like a plastic thing. You can hear Steve, like a counterpart to Michael, with this whole line. It's not even like a harmony, it's a counterpoint. And you can't really do that on ⁓ a piano. It has to be a guitar the way he's fingering it, right? Like the way the strings ring open on certain parts.

Fatboi (17:08)
Right, right, exactly.

Sensei (17:23)
you

Fatboi (17:24)
You know what was what's unique about that is what you said. Piano players play music differently than guitar players play music they can play. They can play the same thing, but the way a piano player is going to play it and cord it up is different than how the guitar player is going to play it and cord it up.

Sensei (17:35)
It's because of the shapes available.

Right is.

Yeah, because I have to figure out these cluster chords because they're not easy on guitar. You usually have to stretch.

Fatboi (17:50)
right it's the fingerings right

right

Sensei (17:56)
I want to get through to the end here because there's some cool chords at the end. ⁓

Fatboi (18:02)
Do do do do do

do do do

Do do do do

Sensei (18:12)
if I don't mess this up here.

this one right here. that's stank right there. I love that. All that tension at the end.

Fatboi (18:20)
Mmm.

Yep. And see,

is all, I mean, that's jazz elements.

Sensei (18:34)
So let's break that

chord down. It's like a B flat major seven with a sharp 11. Or simpler, it's like you put an A minor chord, C, E and A on top of a B flat. So you got a couple sources of that tension. You got B flat and A just fighting each other. Then you got

E to Bb, which is kind of an ugly interval. That's that Diablo del Musica, the flat five kind of interval. And then you got your C up in here. So you got a cluster, Bb, C kind of, and then you got, you got that major seven and the flat five fighting each other. But man, in the context is beautiful.

Fatboi (19:28)
And it's open ended like to be continued. Human nature. What does he do the next day? Yup, yup, yup, the Riddler, yeah. You know what saying? It leaves it open like human nature to be continued. Cause we every day is a continuation of human nature.

Sensei (19:31)
That's human nature. The human question has not been solved.

like the Riddler at the end of Batman.

Every day

is a widening road. We should do that song next.

Fatboi (19:54)
Man,

that, yeah, the instrumentation, man, it's simple but complex, man, is the way I love stuff. Simplicated, yeah. Simplicated, hey, that's the title of the show, Simplications, Simplicated.

Sensei (20:03)
Simplicated. I'm trying to make Simplicated happen here.

We already got a title, but that'd be for the non-music stuff, I think.

Fatboi (20:18)
Yeah, that's man, that's key. ⁓ But the crazy thing is Steve Picaro wrote, he basically wrote the verses into the, so it wasn't hard for when they started breaking down and coming up with the words, the lyrics, it wasn't hard because he already put the cadence in the record. And this is how a lot of records were created back then. Somebody would sit down at the piano,

Sensei (20:38)
Hmm.

Fatboi (20:47)
and basically play the lyric part. It would already be written into the singer understands it or the writers, whoever wrote the record, they would get it. And basically that melody is in there and OK, you know, yeah, a note here or two might change, but basically the gist of it is in there. If they like what's going on is there. And in this case, they literally changed nothing.

Sensei (20:52)
So the singer would get it.

Right,

Right, right.

Fatboi (21:18)
about the lyrics, the lyric cadence. Play Steve's part. ⁓

Sensei (21:25)
Hold on. This is the quickest way to clear out.

Fatboi (21:28)
What was that?

Sensei (21:31)
All hold on. These ads are killing me here. Okay.

Fatboi (21:36)
Ha!

Sensei (21:38)
Hold on, I guess I don't need to share the screen because it's really just the little logo here kind doesn't show much. All right, here is the original demo by Steve Porcaro of human nature. Let's see what we notice different.

the original demo. Here we go.

Well we're in a different key but basically the core draw there

you

Let's hook up in there.

Fatboi (22:26)
And every time I've heard this, plays that piano part the same exact way. It doesn't change. And Mike just played off of it.

Sensei (22:34)
Yeah, it was there. It was sitting there.

yeah

that melody was fixed already

Fatboi (22:56)
Yeah, yeah, it's fixed in there. It wasn't going anywhere.

And he literally said when he sat down to the piano, that's what he played. So the whole entire song started from that. So it was baked in. didn't like, that's that. You know, I started it to this piano and it is what it is.

Sensei (23:13)
Right now. It's

kind of got that breathy quality to the vocals in there too.

You're supposed to be

It's, it's, you know, obviously it's mixed a little different because the pads are a little louder. We don't have the guitar part in there. But there's a cluster chord you were talking about.

Yeah, the keys are pretty much as they were in the other song, just in a different key. We don't have the guitar part in there. But pretty much the drum machine and the bass line are identical.

Fatboi (24:06)
Mm-mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Do do.

And the drum machine part, I'm sure when he created it, that was his backing ⁓ rhythm. And Michael just liked it. He's like, no, let's keep the drums like they are.

Sensei (24:29)
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't really change much.

Well sometimes people fall in love with the temp and demo itis but if it ain't broke don't fix it too.

Fatboi (24:38)
Demo-itis.

Yeah, if it ain't broke,

yeah. We don't have to change it. This feels good already.

Sensei (24:47)
Yeah, the lyric structure is completely there. ⁓

Fatboi (24:57)
Yeah, every everything and because the whole song is there minus the guitar parts and the arpeggiator. The whole song is there because he wrote it from the piano. So everything he put in the piano is in there. Yeah, it's following. It was already there. So the songs there.

Sensei (25:13)
Yeah, it's sort of just following that melody,

They took those pads in there a little bit on the final mix, which is probably the move. They're a little out here, but in my opinion Yeah, yeah, I mean it's the devil it's not the thing

Fatboi (25:25)
Yeah. And they're probably up so you can hear what's going on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sensei (25:37)
And again, like we were talking about with Mrs. In The Bottle, this song was great, it's fine. But the guitar part sets it off.

Fatboi (25:45)
Yeah. And per Quincy Jones, right now is straight pop. Quincy needed Luke, needed Steve to R &B it up. It was straight pop the way it was. Okay, Steve, it's too pop. I need some R &B.

Sensei (25:49)
you

Fatboi (26:11)
And what was very common in R &B during that time was the muted guitar. So instead of just playing, so you had that and that landed the plane with the R &B heads. So now you have a R &B pop.

Sensei (26:17)
Yeah, yeah, they get the little karate chop.

as to just playing your chords.

you ⁓

Mmm.

Fatboi (26:40)
crossover record and here it is and of course Michael is going to deliver the R &B part vocally. Now you have the instrumentation because those drums, right, those drums are not R &B, they're pop. ⁓ The chords overall, the chords overall are, is jazzy. ⁓

Sensei (26:47)
Right, right, right, right. But now you've got the instrumentation representation.

Hmm. Yeah, they're pretty straight ahead. Yeah. The chords are a little jazzy. Got those cluster

chords happening.

Fatboi (27:07)
You got, you got Jack. So in that one song you have everything in there minus, I would say funk. got jazz, you got R and B, pop.

Sensei (27:16)
Yeah, it's not a very overtly funky song. There's, there's stuff happening in the interplay of the drums and the guitar, maybe, but it's gentle, you know.

Fatboi (27:24)
Yeah, well, you know what? Yeah,

the drum fills. You know, so maybe if you want to add the, because the drum fills never stop. They go through the whole song. Yeah.

Sensei (27:30)
There's lot of syncopation, but it's not necessarily funk.

Yeah, it's pretty much the same two bar loop for the most most of the thing. Let's show

it.

Fatboi (27:50)
And I think the drum machine was used on that might be the Lindrum. I think that's a Lindrum.

Sensei (27:59)
Mmm, I

think you might be right actually. Let's see

Fatboi (28:06)
Yeah, that's a Lindrum.

Which Lindrum? Is it Lindrum 1 or is it 2? I don't know, but I think it's Lindrum 1.

And the thing about the Linn drum was the samples are actual real drums. So you didn't really miss the real drum. You only missed human element from the real drum, but the samples were even delayed. you kind of had like that snare is a, it's not on time. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you still had real drums. That kick is a real kick. Snare is a real snare. Everything's real in it.

Sensei (28:38)
a little bit of behind the beat kind of thing.

So we're talking about how the guitar shapes the part. The thing about that little part right there. Like you can only really do that by getting this like bar chord thing where the notes are playing off the top A there.

Fatboi (29:12)
Right, gotta hold, yeah, the top note has to hold, yeah.

Sensei (29:14)
That's why I was struggling with it before. I had to like

sit there and figure out what would Luke have done, you know? And like that's the only thing that makes sense. I guess I could go check his tutorial out, but I like doing the investigative work myself. But that's a very, that's a guitar specific kind of part. I mean, I guess you could sort of do it on the piano, but it's not going to come naturally.

Fatboi (29:37)
It's guitars. Yeah, it's definitely guitar specific and it's also, ⁓ that's a rock element too. Like if you played that harder.

down in an arrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sensei (29:56)
Yeah, you can put some distortion on it. guess you can make all

that could be a rock song. Oh, there we go.

Fatboi (30:05)
Right. So, yeah.

Sensei (30:11)
But that's another thing.

Fatboi (30:12)
So when

I'm hearing it from my ears, when I hear that part, I hear a lot of my favorite rock songs R &B'd up. Tone-wise, it's calmer, but that run, that sounds, it's not an R &B run, that's a rock run.

Sensei (30:23)
Mmm.

It would, yeah, it's not, it is out of the vocabulary of rock, I would say, or a rock approach at least, you know, I've...

Fatboi (30:40)
Yeah. And that to me,

that's why the song, that's why the song meshes so well because Quincy could have easily gone to, he could have easily gone to another ⁓ guitar guy that steeped in the R &B world. He specifically, exactly. He specifically chose him because he knew he'd give him the R &B, but he'd also give him their...

Sensei (30:57)
But he would have got what he's always gotten out of that guy.

bring someone whose own personality and influence

into it. Exactly. And that's, that's where the cool stuff is where the, like the world collide kind of thing.

Fatboi (31:10)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. That's what made that. That's what and I love I love doing that. You know, similar to how you and I work. It's like, OK, Dan, I need this. This is what this is what I need. But put your Dan on top of it, too.

Sensei (31:33)
Sometimes people don't know what they want until you show it to them. You know, and that's, that's the beauty of making music and the studio experience is why people get together in the studio. Why you can't just grab samples. mean, some people do a lot of people do it really, but the cool stuff happens when it's unexpected to even the people participating, right? You're like, ⁓ that worked. Okay, cool. Yeah, exactly. That

Fatboi (31:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right. ⁓ hey, hey, what was that? yeah. I don't know

how many times that happens with us. like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what was that?

Sensei (32:03)
That's

the real breakthrough stuff is when you're like, I don't know, man, let's throw spaghetti on the wall and see if it sticks and hey, it's Linguini Alfredo. Let's go with that.

Fatboi (32:10)
You're next.

That's why I love when we're working in the studio live because I always tell Corey, I always told Corey like, just hit record. Cause Dan ain't gonna remember what he did. So.

Sensei (32:25)
I

told you I'm old I've been hitting the head too many times now I to box

Fatboi (32:30)
So it's like

you hit a part and it's like, ⁓ what's that? I don't know, man. was just, ⁓ okay, Corey, pull it back. Boom, right here, right here. That, play that again.

Sensei (32:37)
Yeah, just... I can't be

expected to remember what I played, but...

Fatboi (32:45)
You and you kind of, kind of the beauty of the beauty of these songs is in post-production because it's like, okay, Dan just did, he just did five solid takes of stuff, but I really love this. I really love that. I really love that. Okay. Right here, pull this part out in the, in the, in the verses, pull this part out in the, in the pre pull that out. in, in, in the chorus, pull this out. Now string those together.

wash, rinse, repeat in secession verse pre-chorus. Okay, now his ear candy stuff. Ooh, ooh, put that right there, boom, boom. And you kind of just do that. And then it's like, okay, here's my Frankenstein. Now, damn.

Sensei (33:31)
Play it that way now naturally. exactly.

Fatboi (33:33)
play this for real. Yeah.

You know, so, so it's basically, you know, we're mad scientists creating Frankenstein in the studio. And then we, we perfect Frankenstein, you know, he has all the cuts and the knobs on him and all of that. You perfect him and then you turn him into a full fledging human without the, you know, take the bolts off of him, no more scars. And now he's just a, he's a straight song now, you know, so.

Sensei (33:49)
Yeah, well, you know.

Yeah

Fatboi (34:03)
And

that's the beauty. That's the beauty of creating in the studio or just creation period because you can Frankenstein the song until, okay, this is, yeah, yeah. Let me move his arm over here. Let me move this ear right here. And, and, and.

Sensei (34:21)
Remember Frankenstein

was the doctor, not the monster, but I didn't get pedantic here. Or Frankenstein, that's my, ⁓ you ever see Young Frankenstein? Young Frankenstein? Mel Brooks movie. my gosh, yeah the black and white one. ⁓ god, it's so funny.

Fatboi (34:24)
What? Right. Right. Right. Right. Frank. Well, we're we're Frankenstein. Yeah.

The black and white.

that

my parents used to try to cram down my throat.

Sensei (34:41)
no, no, it's worth your time. It's worth your time. You gotta look at it. That's one of our Halloween classics.

Fatboi (34:43)
I watched it, I saw it. Yeah,

yeah, I saw it. Because you had, know, back then you had no choice because whatever your parents were watching, you were watching, unless you wanted to go to bed. So if you weren't ready to go to bed, you watching Frankenstein. Frankenstein.

Sensei (35:02)
The Mel Brooks one is worth your time.

Fatboi (35:05)
yeah, Mel Brooks, I've definitely seen that one. Cause that's our generation. All that Mel Brooks stuff. Young kids watching the Mel Brooks version of a serious theatrical piece.

Sensei (35:08)
Yeah, yeah.

No, no,

no, that one's a work of art. We're about Halloween times. We gotta bust that out again. ⁓ Let's see what other elements we got. Then maybe we'll bring Michael into the mix here.

Fatboi (35:26)
Absolutely.

Sensei (35:33)
So we got the keys. ⁓

Fatboi (35:34)
We got the count ins

from the engineer.

Sensei (35:43)
Cheers.

Fatboi (35:51)
There's the piano part, the cadence, the vocal cadence.

Sensei (35:55)
A little extra percussion maybe.

We got a little more key double there.

nice little yeah that was cool I never really noticed that before right a couple of those pads that were really loud in the demo they were just kind of tucked back in the final mix

Fatboi (36:11)
Yeah, did you hear how ⁓ it opened up? But that's on the synth. The synth does that.

you

Yeah, that's the emulator right there.

Sensei (36:44)
That was tucked back in the mix too, that do do do do do do. Okay.

Yeah, I wasn't, I never really heard that part before. It's tucked back in there.

Fatboi (36:58)
I've always heard it, but Michael sings on top of it. She's keeping him, why keeping him? A round. So he added the first time it comes up, you hear it bare. And then the second hook, Michael says she's keeping him, why keeping him? round. Yeah. So, so in the song, it's so significant because it's significant, but insignificant because you hear the guitar. See?

Sensei (37:02)
⁓ that was the thing. Yeah. Okay. That's that part

Fatboi (37:26)
Now Michael sings it this time.

Sensei (37:26)
⁓ so

that's like the whole lyrical counterpoint to the idea.

Fatboi (37:31)
Yeah,

so you don't pay attention to it because it's covered up by the vocal, but the first time it plays, you hear it. I've always heard that part.

Sensei (37:45)
I love this little arpeggio thing.

Okay, let's bring some Michael into this here maybe. And there's like five tracks on this multi-track. You think the first one is?

Fatboi (38:05)
Yeah. I think

it's not the first for sure. I think it's like vocal five.

Sensei (38:09)
Let's pull up number five then.

I'll maybe pull some of these other elements down just to hear what's going on.

Ooh, I like that lush... People played more with the pitch bends before. ⁓

Fatboi (38:24)
Yeah, woo, yep.

Yeah, I think that's the...

Sensei (38:32)
That

sounds familiar. Let's hear some of the other ones though. ⁓

Fatboi (38:36)
Yeah, I think that's the one.

Yep, that's it.

Sensei (38:42)
sweet sandusing sighs

Fatboi (38:49)
Yeah, you, you, and you can tell, and this is the crazy thing. This is what I love about this, right? Because the part that they kept that we all know, those are the best parts. Like you can hear some of the differences and you're like, okay, that's cool, but.

Sensei (38:59)
Let's hear some of the almost rands. I want to hear some of the

ones that didn't make the cut.

Fatboi (39:10)
Losing sight.

Sensei (39:12)
I loved

that one.

That one's maybe a little under the pitch. ⁓

Fatboi (39:35)
See, see that's different. Losing side. That's what he does on the

final. He leaves that one little losing side. He does that. So it's, they're all close, but on the runs and fields and stuff like that, he does slightly different things.

Sensei (39:43)
Hmm.

Here's track two. Look at that, he's really pushing that breath. A little different articulation there, like it drags it out a little bit.

Fatboi (40:10)
See? That's different. Yep.

Sensei (40:17)
Won't fool me tonight

That one's still pretty close. Let's hear number three. Looking out across the night time, the city winks asleep as I hear her voice shake my window, sweet seduce

Fatboi (40:49)
window.

Sensei (40:51)
That breath going That's what we're talking about how ⁓

How much the city is part of the sound of this, like the whole thing with the way the keys are was like a sound of New York City. I still want it.

Fatboi (41:26)
Mm-hmm.

Sensei (41:54)
I think that's probably the one we're used to.

Fatboi (42:00)
Bye.

Yep. And to me, the take that they chose is the best one. I can hear the, if it was me producing this record, those are the takes I would have chosen as well.

Sensei (42:12)
Well,

it's got the best balance between driving it forward and the breathiness without like the best balance of all the things he's trying out and it takes before that. ⁓

Fatboi (42:19)
Will.

Well, for me, it's the keys he's hitting. Losing sight.

That sounds better to me, what he's doing. Watch this right here. Because he's doing all this the same. Then apple. Then let me take a bite. I like that better. Let me take a bite. So that's taking me back to church. So if I hear somebody do that.

Sensei (42:33)
If this sound is just an apple, then let me take a bite. If they say why, why, tell them that it's you.

A bite

Fatboi (42:52)
And it's that one little take a bite, bite, bite, bite. It's that versus going, let me take a bite.

Sensei (42:56)
If this sound is just an apple, then

let me take a bite. If they say... There's like, ⁓ there's like three notes in that, ⁓

Fatboi (43:07)
Yeah,

yeah, so he does that front roll in most of them. It's the back end. ⁓

Sensei (43:19)
Yeah, you can hear

the note pitch levels more distinct there. If this town is just an apple Then let me take a bite If they say why, why Tell them that this is your only journey, why

Fatboi (43:22)
Yeah, I love ghost notes, so it's just, but that's a church thing.

Sensei (43:40)
⁓ Hmm

Fatboi (43:53)
But you know what's funny though?

There's another producer that may have chosen one of those other takes. I just think the way we hear things, ⁓ for me, I'm very detail oriented. And like I said, I grew up church background. My grandmother was church pianist. My mother sings in the choir. I got singers up and down my family. So my ears are more keen to those fluctuations in the voice.

Sensei (44:01)
Why is that?

Fatboi (44:22)
no matter how subtle I hear him. And somebody else might miss those small little, little ee, ee, ee, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, little stabs, little ee, ee, and for me, those kind of movements in the vocal moves my soul. But for somebody else, they might not hear that the same way. You know, they might like him going, losing sight.

Sensei (44:30)
those little pitch steps, the little hearkening to like kind of a church style.

Fatboi (44:50)
because they feel like that's what's best for the song. But for me, and Quincy, Quincy comes off, Quincy comes off the church and jazz and all. So.

Sensei (44:59)
Well, he's

always about bringing different worlds and sounds together too. That's like his thing, right?

Fatboi (45:03)
together.

So, and you can't separate him from how he grew up. He grew up church, jazz. So he hears that too. He knows those vocalists that... That's a thing to him. That's familiar to me. That grew up, that reminds me of Etta James. That reminds me of, you know, yeah. So you hear that and...

Sensei (45:18)
So that little run, it's like, okay, we're going with that one. Cause that, that's bringing me back. Yeah.

it's a call back

Fatboi (45:33)
That takes you back to times when you're a child, you're in church and you just remember this vocalist that just did something to you that touched you, you know. So it's just different. But a guy like Steve Perry, he does stuff like that. And I love Steve Perry and he's in rock. But to me, yeah, to me, feels like Steve, like when I hear Steve sing, it's like, man, you had to grow up in church too or something, man. Cause you're too soulful when you sing.

Sensei (45:48)
Hmm. ⁓ the journey guy. Yeah.

The f-

Fatboi (46:03)
Like that

dude is super soulful, It can't be faked. So, and I think that's different. ⁓ think, you know, from how people hear things, some producers I think would have chosen some, I think most producers would have went with ⁓ the past that everybody heard because it's just, he's killing it in there.

Sensei (46:05)
The font can't be faked.

It was nice.

Yeah. And he was like really selling the yeah. But the last take, he toned that down a little bit and put that little like run on the take a take a bite or whatever. Yeah.

Fatboi (46:29)
Yeah, it's all it's there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's, it's, it's for me, you know, he's ca he's capturing the breaths in everything or boom, we want it breathy. So you're breathy, but your articulations at the end of these runs is just, yeah. Right. Yep. That keep, keep the breaths in there. Like let's keep it breathy.

Sensei (46:52)
Well, it's interesting because how breathy the demo was, right? Yeah, do that breathy thing. Wait, wait, hold on. You're killing me with the breath, but do your thing. By

the time we got to take five, we kind of worked it out there.

Fatboi (47:05)
But the thing about Michael, I stress this to a lot of artists right now that I work with because a lot of artists will hear the demo and the reason they like the demo is because of the demo. And then when they try to sing the song themselves, they don't do what the demo is doing. They're like, hold on, you like this song because of what they were already doing. So capture what they're doing. Capture that first.

Sensei (47:28)
What do you bring into the table?

And then...

Fatboi (47:33)
And then

we'll do the you stuff.

Sensei (47:35)
You have

to let it evolve and mutate into something new.

Fatboi (47:38)
Right.

So what, what separates the Beyonce's and the Michael Jackson's and, and, and, you know, all these great artists is when they get records, they capture what they liked about the demo in the, in, in, what they're doing. And then they just like, like nobody did. That's Mike doing Mike, but whatever Rod Temperton did to a song that he wrote for Michael, Michael, if Rod goes,

Sensei (47:59)
No, that's his own thing.

Fatboi (48:08)
Yeah. Mike is going to do. Yeah. He's going to do that. But then on top of that, he's going to add his. Yeah. He's going to add his stuff to it. And that that's that's where he owns it. But the best vocalist capture was in the demo because you like that demo for a reason. Now you're going to take the elements of the demo that you that you just going to you it all all the way up now.

Sensei (48:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Fatboi (48:36)
capture what you liked about it. what, what, what, what, ⁓ the best vocalists are copycats. They can copy what's in the demo before they add them to it. Okay. Now we're going to do me.

Sensei (48:52)
⁓ mediocre artists borrow, great artists steal.

Fatboi (48:56)
Great

artists steal. you know. Good artists borrow, great artists steal.

Sensei (48:58)
But that means they steal it,

they go one more step and they make it their own thing. That's the theft. Yeah, yeah.

Fatboi (49:03)
And they own it. ⁓

You have to own it. you you wouldn't believe how many new artists now, they, ⁓ I loved it. Yeah, I want to cut it. OK, but now you're singing everything that you loved about it out of it. Capture all those elements. We got to capture what was in there first. It was written into the song for a reason by whoever wrote it. So capture that. Yeah.

Sensei (49:28)
You gotta trust the process. You gotta trust the

process of stealing it, quote unquote.

Fatboi (49:32)
Yeah, yeah,

like trust the process. Like if it's in there, put it in there.

Sensei (49:39)
I heard John Mayer say something about this and I've been, I took it to heart cause I'm really working on a tribute project for Queens of Stone Age, but I'll get into that later. But like he said, when you're, when you're starting out, like you really have to just copy because you have to like try to emulate a hundred percent because you will inevitably fail. But in those failings, that's where you find your own voice. That's where you find your own personality is

Fatboi (49:55)
You gotta copy.

emulate. ⁓

Yep, absolutely.

Sensei (50:08)
where you just can't emulate any further, but that's your own soul, your own spirit speaking through the music. That's where you find yourself in that gap.

Fatboi (50:20)
And that's how I started. I started by emulating my favorite producers. just, would find similar type drum sounds that they used. would, I would do chord progressions the way they do it. ⁓ I would do fills, how they do them. And once I started, my stuff started sounding similar to my favorite, ⁓ producers and musicians. By that time I started breaking off into the way I

I'm actually hearing this stuff, but now I can do the things that people do that make it sound big and full and that's the next step, developing your own. You have to, yeah. Everybody copies.

Sensei (50:56)
Well, that's the next step in the process. You go through the process and it's a cycle, you know, and, it's a martial art. It's

kind of a martial arts concept too. Like, you know, cause I've been around a little while, but I still feel like I can begin again. And it's called beginner's mind. And the idea is you start as a white belt, you get a little more seasoned. You get to a green belt, kind of like a tree, like a little sapling coming up out of the ground. And you become like a tree. You get like a brown belt. You got like a trunk and you're firm.

And then when you become like the mighty Oak, whatever you got a black belt, right? But then after seasons go through your black belt kind of gets frayed and starts falling apart a little bit, gets grayer and whiter. And you're basically like a white ball again. You can start the cycle of learning again. You know, I think people can keep that open mindedness or open to beginning again or learning more. That's where you still find that creative cycle can, can renew, know, um,

Fatboi (51:38)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Sensei (51:55)
But that's where you have to work through all those stages to get there too.

Fatboi (51:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

It's a, it's not just jump into it and you're here. It's like, no, you gotta, you gotta figure this thing out. I think, I think all the, think all the, yeah, yeah. You gotta put your 10,000 hours in. And I think everybody comes from the, I mean, to be, to be, to be a good leader, you have to first be a great follower. So, and that's.

Sensei (52:08)
That's the 10,000 hours.

Fatboi (52:23)
It's the natural, I mean, Michael Jackson, of course, grew up listening to James Brown, emulating James Brown, emulating ⁓ Fred Astaire ⁓ dancing, Sammy Davis Jr. You know, he emulated all these people and he turned it into his own thing. He became him once he, you know,

Sensei (52:38)
yeah yeah.

Fatboi (52:49)
branched out and learned more and incorporated all these styles and stuff like that. at first, mean, yeah, that's what he was. He was emulating his favorite artists. even Michael Jackson still doing the, that's still James Brown.

Sensei (53:09)
Yeah, it's just distilled into Michael's personality and coming through his psyche and the moment. Yeah.

Fatboi (53:12)
It, he, right. He turned it into him.

He turned it in him and even ⁓ like James Brown doing, hey, hey, hey. Instead of that, yeah. That's Michael going.

Sensei (53:26)
I can't do it. There's some phlegm-y thing in the throat there, yeah.

Right.

Fatboi (53:34)
He's basically taking the James Brown yell, ow! And now he's going, ooh!

Sensei (53:38)
you do it

Fatboi (53:41)
So, I mean, you know, get same thing with Prince. When you listen to Prince, you hear Jimi Hendrix, you hear the Beatles, you hear James Brown, you hear all that intertwined into one and it's Prince though.

Sensei (53:58)
Yeah, it's a new thing, even though you can see the strands of the DNA of those different things, but yeah, it's definitely its own creature.

Fatboi (54:00)
It's a new thing.

The DNA is there, right. Great word.

Great word. The DNA footprint is there. Michael Jackson has that certain DNA in him and they both have the James Brown gene. They both have that. ⁓ Yeah, they both have the James Brown. And to be honest, the James Brown gene is in everything.

Sensei (54:11)
Yeah.

yeah, the Godfather.

Pretty much.

Fatboi (54:27)
The James

Brown gene is that it may be an atom, but it's there. I think the Beatles gene is in everything. ⁓ I think that gene is in everything. I think the Jimi Hendrix gene is in everything. But James Brown is, you don't hear much modern music today without the funk.

Sensei (54:32)
⁓ One strand of mRNA.

funk. We could talk a little bit about Bo Diddley and Little Richard too. Yeah, but definitely in today, in 2025, there's a lot of James Brown influence flowing, flowing through the musical veins.

Fatboi (55:00)
both, both Lily, little Richard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And James even said that. He's like, you're not going to hear any music that doesn't have a little piece of me in it. It's my best James. Bobby!

Sensei (55:21)
Such routines for Pretty good. Man,

hey, let's get through the bridge cuz I want to get to that cool court at the end

think we've got some background vocals in here somewhere. Let's see. There we go. With that echo thingy. Kind of a ping pong. Let me back that up see if we got that vocal happening here. Oh, there you go.

Fatboi (55:44)
Yeah.

Yeah. She's keeping him, why keeping him? A round.

It took me until I was a full grown adult to finally figure out what he was saying right there, man. That's crazy. And I learned it from this, from when he died, this is it. That's when I learned what he was actually saying. She's keeping him, why keeping him? A round.

Sensei (56:17)
Let's back that up. Cause there's a lot of

stuff that kind of tucked back in the mix.

And when you 10, 12, 13 hearing it for the first time, you don't really focus on all that stuff. it was like non-sense syllables,

Fatboi (56:41)
Well, I couldn't distinguish what he was actually saying. I always heard it. I just couldn't make the words out. It's like, what is he saying?

Yeah. And he didn't put it, it's not in the lyric sheet.

And okay, so what it was was a round like who says a round instead of around? He had to yet right. He had to make it work. No rules in music. You know, it's all you know. Yeah, make it work.

Sensei (57:02)
That's a weird way to say it, but I guess you had to fit it into the rhythm.

Yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do. Startin'

to sound like the record again a little bit. ⁓

There it is. ⁓

Fatboi (57:43)
She's keeping him, why keeping him around?

do no no do no

no

Sensei (58:03)
That way, ⁓

Fatboi (58:08)
That's way.

No auto tune at that.

Sensei (58:13)
They

just let it ride. It's a little flat. It's just emotion. They would auto-tune the shit out of this today. No, it wouldn't sound like Michael. It'd sound like everybody else. It's those perfect imperfections we like to talk about.

Fatboi (58:17)
But you know, yeah, it's emotion. Yep. And it wouldn't sound good to me. No. Yep.

I gotta get back outside, yo. I'm outside.

Sensei (58:36)
That's such a brilliant line though. Now that I got it, it's so much fun to play. Okay ⁓

Fatboi (58:37)
Tell them that is human nature.

She's keeping him, why keeping him? A-Row. Ooh, tell him.

Brilliant line, man, I love it. It's my favorite part in the record.

She's keeping

Sensei (59:06)
Why, why, why, why, why,

Fatboi (59:06)
him, what? Keeping him around.

Sensei (59:10)
why, why, why, why, why,

Fatboi (59:15)
And also those ending vocals

is another reason why you keep this, ooh, tell him all that at the end. He went crazy at the end in this take.

Sensei (59:19)
Yeah Bye! ⁓

Fatboi (59:28)
Keeping him around. Ooh, tell him.

If they say why, ooh, tell them.

Sensei (59:44)
there's a little army there. ⁓

Fatboi (59:53)
Yup. Nas used that in his song, ⁓

It ain't hard to tell.

Sensei (1:00:10)
that on tag Bb to Fmaj7 to this one.

Fatboi (1:00:20)
That's a hell of an ending, man. Damn. Nobody ends records like this no more. Everybody just lets it go off. It cuts off or it just, or it fades out.

Sensei (1:00:32)
Yeah, man.

Fatboi (1:00:35)
So Nas, you know, people used to say Michael wouldn't give permission for anybody to use his records, but that's a lie. Nas, Michael loved Nas' record, ⁓ It Ain't Hard to Tell so much. Michael's only thing was just don't cuss him the record. The Beatles wanted to use a Michael Jackson record, not the Beatles, the Beastie Boys. He wouldn't clear it.

Sensei (1:01:00)
Okay.

Fatboi (1:01:02)
Cause they were being, they were doing Beastie Boys stuff. So it was like, no, no, you can't have that. Stevie Wonder is the same way. Look, anybody can, you can clear my, you can clear my songs. Just don't cuss. I don't want you to cuss in it. So it wasn't that Michael wouldn't clear anything. Well, he had to like the record. Number one, if I liked the record, okay, now let's get to step two. I liked the record, but you're cussing too much. Can you clean it up? Okay. We'll do a clean. Like for instance,

Sensei (1:01:23)
Well.

Fatboi (1:01:32)
He cleared Kanye ⁓ West for PYT. ⁓ Throw your hands up in the sky. ⁓ Up in the sky. He cleaned that. He cleared that for Kanye West, but Kanye doesn't cuss in that song nowhere.

Sensei (1:01:59)
just an aside, you gotta check out Jacob Collier's version of PYT before he blew up when he was like a teenager doing YouTube videos, but he actually got Quincy Jones to sing. Like he got him to sing backup vocals on it, like on a, on like a phone video and from his office. I think that's where he kind of hooked up with Quincy Jones and his career blew up.

Fatboi (1:02:13)
Ha ha!

Are you?

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And you know, ⁓ on the Thriller album, ⁓ PYT, it might be another song as well, but PYT is the only song Quincey actually composed. Like everything else was either ⁓ already there from Michael, ⁓

Sensei (1:02:38)
Mmm. I did not know that.

brought from, brought in from songwriters. Okay.

Fatboi (1:02:47)
Cause Michael, you know, Michael, you know, Billy, Michael brought in Billie Jean, Michael brought in, you know, ⁓ most of the, most of the songs. And I think the only two records that Quincy might've actually composed was Lady of My Life and, ⁓ and PYT, PYT especially cause him and the writer of the song, James Ingram were hanging out one night and, ⁓ they saw it was like some, some, some beautiful young ladies walking by.

And ⁓ James noticed them, he's like, man, those girls are bad. And Quincy was like, pretty young things, PYT. And you know how that light bulb comes on and you kind of, we do the stare off into the abyss. And right there we see the song, PYT. ⁓

Sensei (1:03:30)
the studio.

Yeah, that could be a thing. That could be a

whole thing right there.

Fatboi (1:03:42)
And that's how it came. So Quincy actually composed PYT. So that, if you want to know what it sounds like out of the brain of Quincy, how he actually constructs a song, PYT is it.

Sensei (1:03:57)
Okay. Well, if you want to, if you

want to hear on the third level, listen to Jacob's version of that. Cause he throws a whole bunch of new stuff into that and the way that it's still, yeah, Jacob Collier. ⁓ but yeah, that's, that's what got him on Quincy's, roadmap, I think. ⁓ cause

Fatboi (1:04:08)
Jacob.

Yeah,

and I really picked up on him when Quincy was involved, know, because Quincy endorsed him. He's like, ⁓ this guy is, yeah.

Sensei (1:04:25)
Yeah, yeah. Quincy blessed him and

threw him into the greater universe. He was just some kid in England doing YouTube videos. Now he's like this worldwide star Grammy winner packing stadiums in South America. Yeah. like Quincy, I mean, he really didn't falter. That kind of like one of those rare gems, you know.

Fatboi (1:04:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. He's one of those. And to impress Quincy, that's a lot. That's a lot. I mean, all the great musicians Quincy has saw in his lifetime, like, come on, man. You know, just anybody was going to impress Quincy? No, you had to be special.

Sensei (1:04:56)
So.

Yeah, that's a hell of a cosign.

And of course, he knew that too. He knew his cosign meant something, so he used it sparingly.

Fatboi (1:05:12)
Yeah. And Quincy, he

kept, Quincy kept special around him his entire career. Everybody was, know, Lewis, the bass player. Oh man. Lewis Johnson, special bass player, special. That dude was special. He played on a lot of Quincy Jones.

projects besides the Brothers Johnsons, they had their albums, but separate from that, ⁓ Lewis played on a lot of stuff.

Sensei (1:05:52)
Quincy always assembled

the A team and he loves it when a plan comes together.

Fatboi (1:05:56)
Always had the 18. know, yeah.

Greg Philling Gaines, special keyboard player, special. Steve Lukather, know, special. Special.

Sensei (1:06:04)
And Steve, look with her and they're still doing stuff together. I just saw them a couple months ago with Toto

here in Atlanta, man. They killed it. know, like there's something special about that synergy, man. You found the whole crew, the whole crew. Yeah. They're just like, so, but man, ⁓ well, I think we, we, we wrapped up human nature pretty well here, man. There's some hidden nuggets of music theory.

Fatboi (1:06:12)
Yeah. Yeah, these guys are special, That whole, the whole total group was special. Yeah. All those guys, they were all special.

Sensei (1:06:33)
⁓ production choices, ⁓ bringing styles together in a way that hadn't been brought together before, you know? ⁓ and just, just to leave on that beautiful question mark.

Fatboi (1:06:50)
Yeah. ⁓ I'm going to say one more thing about the, you know, like, you know, Michael, Michael had five takes, right? But what Michael would do, Michael would go home and like learn the song. He would learn it. Come back to the studio the next day and record it all like, like, so these takes are full takes all the way down. Of course, of course, the mistakes they didn't keep. Yeah. Right. They're not point.

Sensei (1:06:58)
you

Right? they're performances. They're not punches. They're performances.

Fatboi (1:07:19)
punches today,

Sensei (1:07:19)
That's a good point.

Fatboi (1:07:21)
we would take, we would take, I mean, we still do the passes, but the way a lot of modern artists record, we're just gonna take some of those great Michael Jackson parts and put them in with the, he did this part really well, instead of them singing the whole song well.

Sensei (1:07:39)
And

then, yeah, like getting, so that they're leaving that part of the process out where you let Frankenstein become a real boy. You're like, you can take your bolts out now and put your suit on and do the little, you know, put your tuxedo on and go to the show, right?

Fatboi (1:07:47)
A real, yeah, yeah.

You take the bolts out. Yeah, right.

Yeah, so we're really creating the monster ⁓ in today's time. He didn't have as many scars and bolts back then because everybody knew their parts, because they had to know their parts, because technology hadn't progressed to the point where, OK, we can just record this part and we can move stuff around and stuff. No, it's all on tape. So what you put on that tape was what you put on that tape. Yeah.

Sensei (1:08:19)
Yeah, yeah. It was a little harder to edit. Yeah, you

couldn't do the Pro Tools thing. You could edit, but man, it took a specialized guy all day to move a course to another course or something with the razor blades and the whole thing. Yeah.

Fatboi (1:08:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

man, actually, yeah, you had to take razor blades and actually splice the tape. Like, like,

like I don't think a lot of artists today actually know where cut and paste actually cut. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. They literally had to cut the tape and paste the tape back together to edit.

Sensei (1:08:44)
Yeah, all those anachronisms. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's not just a metaphor. It used to be the way it was done.

Fatboi (1:08:57)
Yeah.

Cut and paste was a real like nothing in, what you see in, technology, in the recording phase, nothing, none of that stuff fell out of thin blue sky. It comes from real world terminologies in recording music. Yeah. Those terms and they still have meaning. mean, we're still cutting and pasting. We're just not doing it on tape. And if you messed up that cut, Oh my God.

Sensei (1:09:12)
Yeah, it fell out of use, but the terms are still there,

Yeah.

You got

problems, yeah. That's a little high pressure situation, yeah.

Fatboi (1:09:27)
You got problems.

high

pressure and it wasn't a straight line. You had to cut at an angle, right? So the tape head is lined up. Yeah.

Sensei (1:09:37)
Well, you had to do it diagonally so the tape, the tape wouldn't fall apart. It was a stronger bond to like ⁓

paste it together with the diagonal. So yeah.

Fatboi (1:09:47)
Yeah, yeah. So I

mean, man, I mean, you had to, and then you had to rub out the pace so that part wouldn't be a hole in the song. Yeah, ⁓ man. It's a process, man. It's a process.

Sensei (1:09:56)
wouldn't catch in the thing, yeah. These kids today, they don't know. Yeah.

But we've leveled up since then.

Fatboi (1:10:07)
We've leveled up. mean, we've leveled up and I'm not mad at the growth of technology because it made the things that you may have that might imagine Quincy them having this kind of technology back then what they would have done.

Sensei (1:10:25)
What would have been different, right? You know, wouldn't, maybe Michael wouldn't have bothered doing five takes. He just paced together the best one and maybe it wouldn't have been as good, you know? It's a product of its time, you know? The limitations, sometimes the limitations are actually good because they force creativity. You have to work around a problem, you know? And Michael's solution.

Fatboi (1:10:35)
Maybe, Yeah, it's a product of its time.

And they being creative back,

but practice.

Sensei (1:10:50)
Michael's solution was to go home and practice and

come back with a performance the next day after they did the little assembly, you know? Yeah.

Fatboi (1:10:55)
And the performance, ⁓ yeah, dancing and everything. And then,

I mean, being creative was having 48 tracks instead of 24. wow, y'all got two tape machines in here? How are you even doing that? And that's an expensive way to get 24 more tracks. And you were losing one track to SMPTE.

Sensei (1:11:16)
And you know, it was an, that's when engineers are engineers and really had to like make stuff work rather than push a button. Someone had to sit there and figure out the sink, the routing and hope the machines behaved and catch that lightning in a jar that one time.

Fatboi (1:11:18)
and you made it all work.

You made it all work.

That, that part. Yeah.

Because none of these machines, I don't care. Okay, the brand new, whatever, but no two of them were the same. They all had their own, and that's why you have, what do they call them? ⁓ Gold standard ⁓ models of certain, you know,

Sensei (1:11:52)
They all have personalities.

Like certified

or whatever.

Fatboi (1:12:05)
Yeah,

you know, in this studio, everybody goes to this studio because the compressor in this studio is just, my God, it does its own thing. And come to find out that that compressor ⁓ in the engineering, there was a flaw in the engineering of that one compared to other ones, but it did us, it was a great flaw and it did a special thing. So everybody wants to use it. Yeah, so perfect imperfections.

Sensei (1:12:22)
Right, right, right. But it was a good flaw. Yeah.

So then they made a new model based on that. Yeah. The perfect imperfections or like we say, that's that Brian Eno idea

that the, the flaws of a media become its signature over time. The tape hiss becomes it's retro, you know, the warble of the speed of the tape. That's, that's like a blessing when you got sterile digital, by the I wore my shirt today, the forgotten media.

Fatboi (1:12:41)
Yeah.

Exactly.

Aha. And you know, ⁓ in the UA world, a lot of the replications of the ⁓ plugins that Universal Audio makes, they modeled some of these gold units. Yeah, the flaws and all. So they went to certain studios to model that golden unit. Yeah.

Sensei (1:12:55)
The tangible media.

⁓ painstakingly, flaws and all?

Yeah, no, exactly.

Well, sound I'm using on this thing right here, it's, what is it called? The Astra pedal, UAD. the patch I'm using right now is a very accurate emulation of like, I guess the Boss CE2, the chorus. And it's got a little bit of that pitchy, warble, but not too much, just enough.

Fatboi (1:13:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

that pitch you up, yeah.

That's why it sounds so.

Sensei (1:13:48)
Let's get that sound of the 80s. put a little slap back delay on it just because I like it.

Fatboi (1:13:50)
That's that 80s. That's that 80s.

That

makes it even more 80s, that slapback. Slapback was a real thing in the 80s, my God.

Sensei (1:14:02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you

gotta lean on that. But the way the distortions of it actually lend itself to that tone, like there's lots of chorus pedals out there, there's a dime a dozen, but to get something that nails that whole vibe of the 80s, you know?

Fatboi (1:14:16)
Yeah.

man. man.

Sensei (1:14:29)
Works good on this song too.

Fatboi (1:14:36)
man, that's it.

Sensei (1:14:37)
What do you got there?

Fatboi (1:14:39)
Yeah, this is my Chroma Console.

by hologram.

Sensei (1:14:48)
We should work up a demo on... ⁓ That should be one of the first cook-ups then.

Fatboi (1:14:50)
I love it. love this thing.

Yeah, and I also love this.

Sensei (1:14:58)
we got there. that's the boss version of the space echo. ⁓ I got I got to my hands on that one, You're holding out on me. What the hell? yeah, yeah, no. Yeah, we got to plug that in when re- group here. Hey, but until next time, it's.

Fatboi (1:15:03)
The space echo. man, I love this too. man, you love it, Dan. ⁓ You love it, man. man, you love it.

Yeah.

Levels to this.

Sensei (1:15:22)
Thanks for watching.